911 Fan Shrouds, FYI Wednesday, 23-Aug-2000 01:10:10 Message: 209.156.132.34 writes: I received my B. Bergmann 911 Porsche fan shroud kit today. Unbelieveable Quality! The fiberglass shroud took only very minor trimming to get a perfect fit: both to the motor and around the fan ring! The fan and ring share the same high quality. He is manufacturing all of these parts, in addition to the shroud. This is the best quality I have seen in the aftermarket manufacturing world for VW, period. I am in the process of finishing up the rest of the sheet metal, then to paint the shroud. Should be running again very soon. Jim Brown

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Replies:

Jim how much did the kit cost you? (n/t) (Frenchy Dehoux) (23-Aug-2000 01:20:31)

$895.00, includes shroud, alternator, fan, fan ring, stand & strap, oil filler neck, oil cooler block off, power pulley, and belt; quality well worth paying for! (n/t) (Jim Brown) (23-Aug-2000 01:43:02)

I heard a rumor that BB may be closing or reducing his shop size? (n/t) (23-Aug-2000 02:15:00)

Re: 911 Fan Shrouds, FYI (Derek) (23-Aug-2000 03:57:23)

That design was copied also. (n/t) (Jim Brown) (23-Aug-2000 09:06:21)

Maybe you missed Derek's point. Taking an Idea and working with it to build something better is business. Taking someones product and just ripping it off is theft to me. I won't buy from BB anytime soon. Besides, I don't want yellow oil pump studs. I am glad you are happy with the product though. Let us know how it cools. (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 10:04:38)

No, I didn't miss the point, at all. Maybe you need to do more research yourself. The idea behind BB's design, is to improve upon a kit that he WANTED to simply import and sell. I spoke with the other suppliers, having them admit to fitting problems with the shrouds, and trouble finding good used fan parts at a decent price. I don't know about you, but to me BB is bettering the product, not only benefitting himself, but "us", the consumer. I like buying products that fit and work the first time. (n/t) (Jim Brown) (23-Aug-2000 10:28:21)

I have done the research. I can get the real thing for less money straight from Germany, thank you. There is no "Idea" behind the BB design. They are not his ideas. A good kit, affordable alternator, 11 blade fan setup, one piece oil filler/alt stand. It has been done. There are always different solutions to things. I am glad you are happy with your kit. I hope we see more big engines running cool thanks to the Porsche fan setup! (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 11:36:26)

How does the oil cooler work w/this setup? I mean do you have to have an aftermarket cooler, or does the stock one relocate inside the shroud or what? (n/t) (iluvnos) (23-Aug-2000 08:23:08)

Yes, you'll need a remote oil cooler. (n/t) (Jim Brown) (23-Aug-2000 09:10:02)

Which 911 fan did you receive with the kit(11 or late model 12 blade)?? His advertisment pixs show both type fans. (n/t) (Derrick from NC) (23-Aug-2000 09:57:45)

12 blade, newly manufactured fan (not a junkyard model). (n/t) (Jim Brown) (23-Aug-2000 10:31:32)

Re: 911 Fan Shrouds, FYI (Dave Cormack) (23-Aug-2000 11:07:14)

Close to correct. Except in the PTP catalog that I have had over a year it states Golf alternator. :) (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 11:38:20)

Dave, you are completely correct!... (Jim Brown) (23-Aug-2000 13:25:00)

I am not here to defend anyone. I am not bitter. I hope you have good luck with your engine (I swear {see, not bitter, not blinded}). However, have you read Oliver's side of the story which is on his companies forum? (n/t) (Steven Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 14:26:47)

Yes, I have. (n/t) (Jim Brown) (23-Aug-2000 14:41:20)

Re: 911 Fan Shrouds, FYI (Derek) (23-Aug-2000 11:28:43)

We have the same lack of research don't we Derek :) (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 11:39:05)

Just how good is the quality. Are they hand laid fiberglass or a chopper gun disaster that BB got lucky and actually fit the motor. Don't buy his garbage, he is nothing but a rip off. Buy your fan shrouds from that oliver guy strait from Germany. He said that he supplies those shrouds to BB anyway, so I doubt BB even knows how to make something like that he is a jackass. (n/t) (Chuck) (23-Aug-2000 12:26:39)

There is a lot of speculation and such here. Go to the Power Tuning Parts forum and you can hear Oliver's side of the story. (more). . . (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 12:34:39)

Hi Steve !! I talked to Oliver awhile ago about one of these shouds but lost his e mail.I NEED one to make fit on my 3 liter... (n/t) (Mark Reilly) (23-Aug-2000 13:32:22)

His email is on his posts on the Power Tuning Parts forum. http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1084902 (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 13:41:07)

TANKS ......Steve !! (n/t) (Mark Reilly) (23-Aug-2000 13:51:23)

Certainly. (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 13:53:40)

I have BAS kit(the original I think) purchased thru FAT which has been stored for almost 10years. I'm not happy with the oil fill setup on it as well as the small gaps between the fitment of the fan ring and shroud. I also have 2 Porsche generators which I'm not sure if either is any good....besides that I dropped my 11-blade fan and broke a blade off. Keep us posted on your setup Jim....I'll probably purchase one of the updated version now available although I have not made up my mind on from WHO. (n/t) (Derrick from NC) (23-Aug-2000 14:31:40)

I'll keep you posted. The shroud fit, and the uncertainty of the Porsche parts has been completely over come with this kit. (n/t) (Jim) (23-Aug-2000 14:45:58)

That is cool. I saw a FAT Type IV kit (the real high rise one) and the fit was lame! You could fit your hand between the back of the fan shell and the top of the shroud! That could just be the guy that installed it. . (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 15:26:15)

Do you want to sell you old kit? maybe i could use it for my 3 liter .I'm going to cut up the shroud anyway... (n/t) (Mark Reilly) (23-Aug-2000 15:26:33)

For comparison, is anyone currently using an Oliver Knuf style kit? If so, how did you find the overall quality, fit, and installation. How many parts were new versus reconditioned? Would you be willing to provide some detailed photos of the crucial topics of discussion of this kit? (Jim) (23-Aug-2000 15:30:12)

Re: For comparison: I am going to. I already have the Motorola 75 amp, and a polished 11 blade. I also have my fan shell which I am going to turn down to 245mm. I am buying my block from Oliver as well. 6 stud CNC plate setup, 48x40 heads, block shuffle pinned, stroker crank clearanced, bored for 103s, ARG! Oh yeah, this is a VW big block. Time to step up to the plate. I have the JE 103s, stroker crank, Scat 4340 H beams, and some other stuff already. Most everything else is coming from Power Tuning Parts. Oh yeah, I think I'll spring for the 39 gram lifters just so that I can have one part that John Connolly is jealous oh :) (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 15:50:08)

Steve your moter sounds alot like mine,, 88x103,with ARPM block and heads 50x39 ti valves. (n/t) (Mark Reilly) (23-Aug-2000 16:12:07)

Mark, my problem is I am lacking 10mm of stroke over you! 78mm here. Nice easy install on my Type IV with normal base cam (Scheicher 324). You are building yours for 9 second blasts. I am building mine for 12 second blasts. Mine is going to get 8:1 C/R, 911 cooling (from Power Tuning Parts), real big heads but not to kill velocity. I am going for the ultimate street bug engine. Berg cruise with 200 horses just to show Lutz and a few others it is possible with VWs bastard engine. If not, I'll be the first to admit it. Oh yeah, 996 and 951 brakes, 901 5, 8 pt RLR, 17" boxsters, stock body Oval 56. Just darn school and work makes for no time! (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (23-Aug-2000 16:49:13)

Steve,if my 9.5:1 3 liter stays together by the next berg cruise ,dont be suprised if i dont try it with you !! 2 Bastard moters !! (n/t) (Mark Reilly) (23-Aug-2000 21:52:33)

Re: So If both Kits fit well But Bernie Makes his own fans instead of using Porsche Magnesium Fans then are his fans also Magnesium or are they some cheap sand cast aluminium fan?? ( Mark H) (24-Aug-2000 14:55:15)

You'll get your statement from me, take a look at mb1084902, ok? Thanks. (n/t) (Oliver Knuf) (25-Aug-2000 03:04:37)

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Re: 911 Fan Shrouds, FYI Wednesday, 23-Aug-2000 03:57:23 63.232.227.224 writes: It's just too bad that he had to steal the design from someone else. A kit was brought to him from a very nice gentleman from Germany from whom B.B. said he would buy the kits and market them here in the U.S. . Instead, B.B. copied the very complete kit and is now selling them here after claiming HE designed them. He never placed the order with the gentleman from Germany who is now out a good chunk of money. Just goes to show you what kind of snakes are lurking around in the V.W. business these days. Derek

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Re: 911 Fan Shrouds, FYI Wednesday, 23-Aug-2000 11:07:14 64.12.104.159 writes: First off, I am NOT taking sides, I catch enough crap already. BUT, from what I understand, Bernie had every intention of importing the 911 fan shrouds from Oliver Knuf at PTP, but found that the fit wasn't to his liking. As well, he found that the Porsche fan and alternator were cost-prohibitive, at least here in the U.S. SO, he cast his own parts, and is using a watercooled VW alternator with the mounting ears milled off. Bernie claims to balance his fans, and I am curious to see how they actually perform as to head temps, oil temps, etc. Please keep us advised, Jim. I have seen the BB setup, and it looks to be a quality piece. Dave Cormack

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Dave, you are completely correct!... Wednesday, 23-Aug-2000 13:25:00 209.156.132.5 writes: The bitterness on this site seems to unfortunately, mask what we are all after: good RELIABLE performance, at a fair price. If any of you have a problem with BB parts, you do have a choice; buy PTP's or the FAT/BAS unit; it is that simple. PTP's is a copy also. He is also in Germany. Nice place, but a far distance for service. I have delt with BB over the past 5 years +, never having bought ANYTHING from him until now. I have probably made over 30 phone calls doing research on this project. Some of these phone calls were to BB's of course. Everytime someone answered the phone, it was Bernie himself. He is hard to get OFF of the phone. Dave Cormack's assessment is correct. Bernie did purchase PTP's kit (actually more than one), and was not satisfied with the quality. He did have intentions of simply importing and selling this kit. Proper fit, quality, and costs prohibited BB from comfortably selling these kits, and having to service them in the future (or have them sent back). If I did not have one of his kits in front of me, on my motor, I too would feel skeptical, that this was simply a "copy". Fortunately, I bought one kit, from one supplier, and received a quality product the first time. I do not own, nor do I want to own the other brands. E-mails directly from Oliver Knuf, and phone calls to FAT (for BAS version), left me with the feeling that I would be disappointed with either of these kits (either poor quality, or left with finding my own fan, ring, and alternator, and cross my fingers that all of these parts work together, once I located them from across the world). Oliver had nothing bad to say about BB's kit, except that he had a "heater" version he was offering, and felt that this "is indeed the worst part of all!!". Now, if I received a poor quality kit from BB, I would be inclined to say that Bernie is just a good salesman. Fortunately, for me, this is not the case. I purchase all of my performance parts mail order, as Louisiana has no comparable local sources, like those on the West Coast. I have dealt (and still deal) with the BIG companies (Berg), as well as some of the "fly by night" organizations. I can say that over 50% of the time, the advertised quality has not been delivered. Now, what about service after the sale? That means a lot to someone told that you might need to pull the engine, and send it back for inspection to see if the defect will be covered under warranty. Bernie may be viewed as nothing more than a "copier"; not by me however (IMO). I am not here to defend him or his business. I am here simply to build a reliable VW, and to enjoy the hobby, I have been into since 1983. This means spending money once, and making it work. I also would hope, that this might help someone else from making a bad purchase, or at least a more educated purchase. Our reviews of these products is the best source for quality and performance. Unlike "regular" hobbies (like sports etc.), we cannot go to a department store, and touch, feel, or try on, to make the best choice. I would hope that the theme of this forum could remain in the best interest of those who wish to learn more about the parts, performance, good service, with freedom of choice of a manufacturer and an open mind. Jim Jim Brown

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Re: 911 Fan Shrouds, FYI Wednesday, 23-Aug-2000 11:28:43 63.232.239.69 writes: Actually, the kit design he ripped off does use the watercooled alternator and modified ring. This design was being sold by PTP until B.B. decided to pilfer it. Derek

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There is a lot of speculation and such here. Go to the Power Tuning Parts forum and you can hear Oliver's side of the story. (more). . .

Wednesday, 23-Aug-2000 12:34:39

207.70.63.165 writes:

Here is his forum URL:

http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1084902

Make your own choices people.

Steve Arndt

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Re: So If both Kits fit well But Bernie Makes his own fans instead of using Porsche Magnesium Fans then are his fans also Magnesium or are they some cheap sand cast aluminium fan??

Thursday, 24-Aug-2000 14:55:15

216.244.13.168 writes:

That fan turns well over 10,000 rpms. I`ve seen Bernies other brilliant ideas like super light uncounterweighted cranks! You know ,holes drilled in the counter weights so they ...well don`t do anything!! And hydraulic cams with 340 lift at the valve! Now thats anti Horse Power!! I seriously doubt that Bernies "Made in USA" fans are anything more than a cheap Heavy Aluminium sand casting just waiting to EXPLODE!!! Beware people From my experience if this fan kit works . It will be a FIRST for the Bernie bad Product development dept.

I`m sorry if this sounds mean or negative but I am not the only one who is sick to death of

FRICKEN CRAPPY PARTS FROM UNCARING ,UNEDUCATED

parts suppliers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bernie bird brain, SCRAP... oops I mean SCAT,

Claudes Buggies... oh thats right they changed their name to CB PERFORMANCE To try and Fool everyone into not thinking that there a bunch of hill billys that make junk Buggy stuff..which they still are. I could go on but i think I`ve vented enough. Thank God and Keith for this Forum so people can get some feedback on Parts before they put out their hard earned cash.

Mark H